In this episode of The Sound of Automation podcast, we discuss the future of automation with Dan Davis, Editor-in-Chief at The Fabricator. Listen in to learn about the top issues and opportunities facing manufacturers, such as workforce and automation. Dan and Bryan also talk about the importance of diversification and quickly adapting to change within your organization.
Transcript:
Dan Davis 00:00
There's so much more that software, machine tools can do, but yet humans need to be there to orchestrate it.
Intro/Outro Narrator 00:15
Welcome to The Sound of Automation, brought to you by Wipfli, a top 20 advisory and accounting firm.
Bryan Powrozek 00:34
Hello, and welcome to the Sound of Automation. My name is Bryan Powrozek with Wipfli, and as always here today to talk about some issues and challenges that manufacturing business owners and leaders may be having and, and joining me today, I'm pretty excited about this guest, I have Dan Davis, senior, is it senior editor of The Fabricator? Editor of The Fabricator. Edit, editor of The Fabricator and, and also involved in, in FMA. Dan, I guess really quick, if you could just give me a little bit of your background, you know, how you're involved in the whole manufacturing community.
Dan Davis 01:07
Yeah, so I work for The Fabricator Magazine. It comes out 12 times each year. We're official publication of the Fabricators and Manufacturers Association, which has been around for more than 50 years. We are an association dedicated to educating the metal fabricating community, engaging them when they're younger with scholarships, manufacturing camps, and as they proceed through their career through educational conferences, trade shows, and publications. So we like to call it supporting a worker lifecycle. And the publication itself has 52 ,000 readers in the metal fabricating community in the U .S.
Bryan Powrozek 01:42
Excellent, well now I appreciate you coming on and we'll be talking today, you had a blog post on the Fabricator website that kind of caught my eye and really I think is pertinent really at any time, but given the pace of change and things that are happening here in the manufacturing world, just talking about the future of manufacturing and what that looks like for business owners because there's so much changing in the world right now, with AI and machine learning and all these other tools that are kind of coming into the workforce. I mean, they've been here for a long time, but now they're becoming much more accessible to even the small to mid -sized manufacturer. So I thought this was gonna be a great topic to focus on and really help some of those business owners and leaders figure out what to do about all this and how it's gonna impact their business. They may not need to figure out how they're gonna use AI, but how is their business gonna adjust and adapt to that and some of those things. So I guess just to kick us off, and you know, curious from your experience and working with the folks that you work with, what are some of the top issues that you see facing manufacturers today?
Dan Davis 02:53
You know, I've been with the publication and the association just over 20 years. Consistently outside of times of economic downturns, the leading concerns always primarily been finding skilled workers. That gets into a lot of other conversation about quality of employer, pay rates, things like that. But nonetheless, for the most part, finding people who are interested and in pursuing a manufacturing career has not been a high priority for parents across the US. I mean, I think we've seen it with the, I don't wanna call it balloon, which, you know, if it is the balloon, some of the air is being let out of the college, pushing college is a four year path. That's the way to get a good job. Today, that's kind of swinging back the other way. There's a renewed interest in trades. It's been good for the industry, but at the meantime, there's a lot of infrastructure that fell apart since the 1950s and the 60's that used to support educating those people for what we might call blue collar skills. And that has been kind of thrust upon both kind of the community college system, some for -profit schools and the employers themselves and manufacturing sector. So that still rings true today, particularly coming out of the pandemic with so many trends supporting a surge in manufacturing in North America, whether that be reshoring or simply reinvestment in the US through the CHIPS Act, infrastructure bill that really still has not kind of worked its way down to our level of members who are involved with maybe heavy fabricating or structural steel fabricating. So where does that lead them? How do they take advantage of the surge in opportunity while struggling with the idea that they simply can't throw people at it? You know, we can't just add that second shift because we just don't have the people. So that kind of works its way in what you're describing, automation, smarter machine tools, smarter software, and that really has helped to bridge the gap. So just from the standpoint of on the shop floor, laser cutting machines that literally are cutting metal at four times the rate perhaps they did just 10 years ago and thicknesses of metal that they couldn't do it at that point. People are able to produce more parts which addresses other parts of the shop floor where they have to invest in more sophisticated bending equipment with press brakes. Welders, you can't find help. Well, one of the key areas they can't find are welders. It's a hard job and you can make money, but a lot of times when you see the proclamations of welders are needed, make them $100 ,000, well, unless you're working a lot of overtime, you're not gonna get that out the gate. And I'll get into that later, but one of the things we stress is it's not so much being a newcomer to manufacturing, making thousands, it's about the career opportunities because man, if you don't like sitting in front of a computer, this is the place for you. There's a lot of opportunity. So to go back to that, can't find welders, you need robots, robots and even collaborative robots now which are proven to be a cost -effective way for small shops to kind of add this. You look in the front office, you got AI tools that are helping people to streamline quoting. So maybe they're not spending two days on it. Maybe they don't need the guy that's been there 20 years to pull together a complete estimate. Maybe they can rely on somebody with a little less experience to make sure they're asking all the right questions. They give all the right answers. So it's just, there's a whole lot of opportunity at one time, can we do more with less and technology and AI, machine learning lens you to believe, yeah, maybe we can.
Bryan Powrozek 06:43
Yeah, when I look at it and talk with business owners, I mean, that presents this particular challenge, right? Because they're, on one hand, they're trying to figure out how to modernize their operations, right? Put in some of these robotics and these, you know, these different tools that are available to help improve efficiency. But then at the same time, they're trying to find some way to do the same thing with their workforce. And you know, you mentioned it there that yeah, you're not, you're not necessarily going out to get, you know, someone who's going to work on a mill or a lathe and machine these parts themselves. They need to know how to program that new hardware and work with that new hardware. So they've got to, they've got to find the partnerships. And that was the advice I was speaking with a professor one time was was his advice is that hey, you've got to, you got to develop relationships with those local trade schools, universities, whatever it is you're going after, and then help them paint the picture of why it's important to come work at, or why it's good for the individual to come work for that company because of career path or opportunity or whatever the selling point is going to be. But, but yeah, because you're, you're competing with everybody. Everyone's always been competing for the same pool of people, but that pool is getting smaller and smaller. And, and it's just going to be harder. Plus, manufacturing has a little bit of a PR problem. You know, you've got a lot of parents who are encouraging their kids to get into more tech and, you know, the higher end things when reality, there's, there's probably as much exciting, you know, advancement and development happening in the manufacturing world than there is in Silicon Valley. It's just, it's got that legacy of, you know, what old manufacturing used to be dark and dingy and, you know, there's no future. The work's going to be moving offshore. It's like, well, there's, it's a different world now. And so you got to get out in front of that.
Dan Davis 08:30
Yeah, it's such a it's a great refuge for people who, like I said, don't want to sit behind a desk for engineers, they get weighed down by the corporate structure and hand holding of customers, or I should say, like the corporate bureaucracy that comes at larger manufacturing companies, you know, our publication, 52 ,000 readers, slightly over 80% of them are shops that are 19 employees or fewer. So these these folks are like, I like to believe we're seeding the seeding the ground for future larger manufacturers. And that's what I think happens is that these people strike out on their own, and they can grow these companies. And, you know, we regularly have stories in our publications of, you know, companies starting out that size, you know, five years down the road, there might, there comes that point where they want to grow above like 49 employees, because that's when it gets a little bit more intense in terms of paperwork and other requirements that come up being a business of that size. But some choose to grow even more. And there's a wide open opportunity for those shops that are really ready to kind of take the leap and get on the treadmill, because it's a constant, it's a constant battle to kind of please those those customers because they are demanding, no doubt, you know, these folks, these folks are, you know, they describe themselves as problem solvers. That's what they love to do. And there's ample problems to be solved out there.
Bryan Powrozek 10:05
Well, and that kind of leads it, you know, when you talk about that and, and I think we find that in, in a lot of our client base, it was the engineer who got, you know, frustrated working for somebody else decided to strike out on their own, it's, it's an engineer who doesn't necessarily have a business background and is trying to figure these things out, you know, I think one, one thing that we talked about is kind of identifying your, your niche, right? Like what's the widget you're going to make and is there, is there a market you can exploit where nobody else is really focused on but then also as you're starting to grow, what are the tangential things and where can you get yourself into diversifying, you know, your, your customer base or the services you offer, you know, I guess kind of what's your, your thoughts on what you've seen there as far as companies trying to make that jump from the 49 person firm to, you know, something larger.
Dan Davis 10:56
Unless it's a very disciplined approach to tackling a sector of the economy they aren't in, a lot of growth happens to come organically with their current customer basis. There's a lot of larger OEMs, original equipment manufacturers, looking for partners that consistently provide them with good service, quality parts, and for those that are able to figure it out. And there's always opportunity. The ones that are able to do it successfully find discipline within their own organization. They either have, and I would say it kind of goes hand in hand, the culture and the processes. If you have good processes, that means your employees are engaged. They're the ones that are doing the thorough analysis of introducing a part to the floor, making sure that, yeah, A, this makes sense before that estimate or approval sent back to the engineer before they sign off on the product or the part fabrication run. They know, if you can get to the point where that customer knows they're going to get what they expect to get, that goes a long way. Because the reason there's so much opportunity is that there's been so much paring down of the manufacturing responsibility at the OEM level. They're looking, I mean, it's a good business decision. They're looking to push the risk of capital equipment investment and trying to find employees. It's a pain. Manufacturing in a high mix, low volume environment is complicated. And if they can rely on their supply chain to kind of provide that floor, then more power to them. So those companies that are able to step up and provide that have great opportunity to not only grow with them, but then word gets out. People don't. People leave, they go to other jobs. And a lot of this stuff comes, and I don't want to say word of mouth, but to go back to your earlier question about the skills required to reach out to trade schools. And I think the irony of all things is maybe one of the most important skills nowadays is just the ability to sell oneself in one's company, in one's abilities. And everybody's got to believe it, but once you have people believing it, it makes life a lot easier. And if you can keep up and prevent people from doubting what you can say you can deliver, there's a built -in foundation that you can rely on. Because those people, despite all the talk of advanced technology, instant messaging, emails, man, if you can bail somebody out of a tight jam, they'll remember that. And it's really kind of, you know, what metal fabricers tell me is like, not only are there problem solvers, they're usually problem solvers when somebody's in a real tight jam. And once again, that becomes kind of a reputation. And I think that comes from once again, having that ability to get things done on your own end. And that usually involves people who are engaged in the manufacturing process and understanding where they fit and what needs to be done. And also in the processes that allow people to kind of feel like they have that input.
Bryan Powrozek 14:12
Yeah, you know, and it's, I like that you brought that up because I, I think in, in seeing clients make that jump, right? They, they kind of hit that ceiling, uh, and, and they're trying to get past the, the 49 employees or a certain, you know, 10 million in revenues, whatever it might be, it oftentimes comes down to having a process. And so it's, it's funny because the, the thing that the engineer, you know, kind of ran away from the, the bureaucracy and the structure of the large organization. They need just enough of it to, to get over that hurdle. Uh, and then it, it carries out from there. Uh, I've, I've had a lot of clients who are in the situation you, you talked about that, um, you know, they're really good at whatever their service or their product is and the customers are like, well, if they can do that here, can they do it at the next, you know, the next part of the process that's right next to theirs and so they get approached by the customer and say, "Hey, could you, could you service this part? Could you take this job on?" and having that process already in place gives you a starting point to look and say, okay, well, how would I tackle that project? That's not something I've done before. Do I have the skills to take that on? Is it going to be a huge investment for my part? Uh, because the last thing you want to do is take that work on, fail at it. And now your relationship with the customer is shaky or you do a great job, but you lose money on every single one of them you do. So it's, it's having that discipline and that process in place that you can evaluate these things against, um, which then I think makes a lot of that other decision -making easier because you've got kind of a central point to come back to and say, you know, Hey, is this, is this really in our, our skills? You know, and, and, and if it's not, you may still take it on, but you're going to put a premium on that now. And as you mentioned, if, if a customer's backs against the wall, you know, that might be the best time to, to learn and you're going to get paid for it. And then you, you continue to grow and develop the service around that.
Dan Davis 16:11
Yeah, that's a great point because we see many of our job shop community take on more assembly activities. So instead of providing a part providing kind of assembly that then will flow into like an assembly line at their own customer, you know, more machining, whereas, you know, that that that has been a growth area where fab shops are not necessarily they don't consider themselves machine shops, they don't go out and bid on machine machining projects. It's just that they're machining for assemblies that they're doing for customers. They're asking if they're interested in simplifying their purchasing, they can sign one PO instead of numerous ones. The one that gets me is people get dragged into paint and powder coating on a big scale. That is a totally different discipline. Yeah, I mean, I just I had written something on powder coating just recently. And you know, just to they make it sound simple, but I'm not sure. Hey, it's just a lot of room and expense to set up. Yeah. It's kind of there's a little bit of drudgery if there's manual application of like the powder. And I've often heard those sometimes are some of the hardest jobs to fill, just because of that that type of activity. So but you know, the ones that understand it are willing to kind of take once again take on that risk. Because that's that opens the door. Yeah, it just really kind of adds further complexity to what they do on a daily basis. But you know, if they want to grow, it's really once again, that's one of the ways to do it because the reasons they're doing is because customers are asking
Bryan Powrozek 17:46
Oh, yeah. No, and I and I love that example of the fabrication shops. I know I've talked to a few companies like that who are looking at investing in, you know, machine tending robots and things like that, that, OK, well now, yeah, that's fantastic. Your facility can run lights out 24 hours a day. And you don't need the same the same number of people to run that, which is good, because you're struggling to find the people anyways. But now you have to you have to turn that individual who is running a machine into someone that is making sure he can keep six machines running at the same time and right and figuring out getting the raw materials to the machine on time and having that whole schedule worked out. So now your business model shifts, your your job descriptions shift. And and you've got to have some way to figure that out versus just, well, this is all in the person's head that that operates that machine.
Dan Davis 18:44
And I think that that kind of stresses the type of employee they're looking for somebody that can kind of see the big picture and say like, oh, you're taking away what I've done for five years that you know, are you looking to get rid of me? No, you know, we just need we need people that know the process to help us to make sure the process keeps going just with a robot in front of us.
Bryan Powrozek 19:03
Yep. And then sorry to cut you out, but that comes back to the point you were making about having that, that the ability to sell yourself and sell your vision for the company. I'm going to move you from this thing. You've spent your entire life learning how to do or your entire career up to this point. And now I want you to do this, but here's the bigger picture of how that's going to work out for you and create opportunities.
Dan Davis 19:25
Yeah, the leadership component of modern manufacturing, there's so much more that software machine tools can do, but yet humans need to be there to orchestrate it. I know they talk about the future factory and I imagine some instances there may be cases where there's two people on a floor and it's producing thousands of whatever it is, fruit loops to fasteners. But people for the most part, particularly where you have once again that high mix, low volume, that adds so many variabilities. Anywhere there's variabilities at this point, and I think for the considerable foreseeable future, humans are going to have to play a part in kind of making sure things keep running as smoothly as they can.
Bryan Powrozek 20:11
So let's hit on kind of the last area. Then we talked during our prep, but, um, and, and this has come up in the last couple episodes, so I'm not surprised it's coming here, but just pace of change. I mean, it's, it is not slowing down anytime soon. So what's, uh, what do you see in there?
Dan Davis 20:31
I've had more than a couple of fabricators, and I've heard this for a while, the whole belief that if you're not growing, you're dying. I think there's something to that, but I think for some people in our community, they want to be a certain size, and I've heard the phrase lifestyle company, where it provides a life lifestyle for them and their workers, and they're not necessarily interested in adding more people, but if the business were to grow and they're able to add capacity and sales with the same number, that would be a plus, so in a way, it pulls them into the same conversation. They need to make investments to stay relevant to their customers, but also ahead of competitors. We just had, on our own podcast, the Fabricator podcast, his name is Jeff Cupples from Cupples J & J out of Jackson, Tennessee on there, and this is a company that's been around for a while. He may be the third generation running it, and they have more than two dozen laser cutting machines, and these things are not small investments. They're million dollar devices, whereas the industry right now, for the most part, if they have a powerful laser cutting machine, it might be 10 to 12 kilowatts. He's got one on the floor currently at 30, based on technology from Italy, I can say it cut like Pinta's provider, but he's got another one on order for 50 kilowatts. The whole thing is, he's not just buying it, but he's understanding what he can do with it. He understands the technology enough to know that he can run that more powerful laser through thicker material, say about one to two inches, at a pace that more traditional technology, such as plasma cutting, which would be the dominant way people would cut thicker steel. He's doing it in inches per minute that are just unheard of, and he's engaged enough in the process to understand what he needs to tweak to make sure the edges come out to the satisfaction of the customer, so no post -processing is needed. There's no additional machining or anything like that. In this age where we're talking about automation and material removal, trying to weed out non -value added activities out of a fabricating process, he's still relying on manual removal of parts from that type of skeleton. The reason is that he understands both speed and the elimination of secondary processes, so in a way, he's able to maintain the flexibility that comes with basic human involvement of material separation. Not everybody would approach it the same way, but that's the way he's going to do it. The point being is that he's so far out in advance of where his competitors are in terms of laser cutting that he feels like by the time people understand or buy what maybe he asked today, he's going to be on to the next thing. That's part of his DNA, that's part of the cultural DNA. He said he loves to buy stuff to break it, find out what he can do, because he knows he can fix it, but I think for many people, they share the same mindset, that they want to have a competitive edge based on knowledge of processes and tools that allow them to do what their competitors can do.
Bryan Powrozek 24:13
Yeah, and that's, you know, I think that that's a critically important skill for the, for the business owner, for the, the leadership team is, is to really sit down and kind of know, you know, and, and I have this conversation with business owners who started five years ago and business owners who are two years away from selling, it's like, you got to figure what that end is for you. Right. And if it's a lifestyle business, fantastic. Like that's, you know, if, if that's, you know, your, your, your goal in life, you want to be able to, to shut it off at five o 'clock and go home and, and spend time with your family or go fishing or whatever your, whatever your activity is, that's, that's great, you know, but then that can educate your decisions. Cause obviously then that business owner isn't going to want to do what this person's doing and investing in the bleeding edge technologies and trying to push the, the envelope forward. But if you know that that's the kind of company you want, then yeah, you've got to be out there, you got to be at the trade shows, understanding what the technologies are, figuring out, okay, how do I apply this to my business in a way that's going to, you know, my customers are going to find value in it. So I don't just buy a, you know, an expensive piece of machinery that then sits on my floor unused. So, uh, so knowing that there's, there's all these changes going on is one thing, but then what are you going to do about it? And maybe you don't need to respond to every change that comes down the line. Cause it's like, so it's a lifestyle business. You're, you're comfortable with where it's going to be. But if you're not, then yeah, do, do like this other individual, uh, and, and, and figure out your, your channel there and how you're going to be involved.
Dan Davis 25:48
Yeah, where do you want to be special? And, you know, for this, this guy, it's laser cutting. And, you know, he does other things as well, don't get me wrong, and actually big machining operation too. So he's providing like full, full service to his customers. But you know, we've seen, I won't say a surge, but just the, the amount of fabricators now involved in tube fabricating just over the last 10 years is just mind blowing. And then you talk with, you know, we have a calmness for us Caleb Chamberlain out of OSH, or OSH Cut out of Utah. And he's just got his first tube laser cutter. And, you know, he's a younger guy, and he's just amazed like, man, if I knew this existed, when I first started my shop, I'd have been here so much sooner. But you know, you don't have to machine these things. The laser is kind of working around this 3D shape and just doing all kind of crazy cuts on it. And, you know, it's a matter of not only kind of understanding what you want to do as a either company owner, leader, manager, but also what's out there. And that's kind of what I think part of our mission is with the publication is kind of sharing these, these, these newer developments. And, you know, I mentioned collaborative robots, it's just the interest people have in that because they're not buying a, I don't want to call it a fixed asset, you know, I'm at a drop accounting 2001. So, but you know, the investment in that robot at a low price point lower price point than maybe like a welding cell with an industrial robot, and the ability to take that and all right, let's, we're gonna try it on the welding thing. Oh, you know, I don't really like it. It, you know, it didn't really work for us. Maybe we can use it in front of a press break. You know, so there's, they feel like there's flexibility with it. And that I think becomes, you know, it sums up the entire industry in flexibility. And for the people that supply, you know, whether it's machine tools, software, you know, the metal fabricators looking for that thing that can grow with them that can be tailored to their own needs. Because like I said, no one really, especially on the job shop side, no one's got exactly the same business, they may do some similar things, but their customers make them somewhat unique, their locations make them somewhat unique. There's a there's a so much, there's so many differences between shops all over the US, it keeps you know, my job kind of interesting because everybody's got a different tail. It's always kind of fun exploring how they reach their level of success given all the I don't call them obstacles, but the realities they have to deal with on a daily basis.
Bryan Powrozek 28:38
Yeah. So Dan, last question here before we wrap up, you know, cause that's, that's a lot to take in, right? If you're a business owner and you're trying to, um, yeah, you're trying to get the jobs out the door, you're trying to bring in new work, you know, and then you listen to a podcast like this and you hear all these things that are going on in the background that you have to try and keep your eye on what's one piece of advice you have to those, those manufacturing leaders that are struggling to try and make sense of all this.
Dan Davis 29:06
Yeah, I think you brought it up kind of, you know, deciding what, you know, what your goals are, you know, do you want to, you know, grow to a certain dollar amount? Do you want to diversify for the sake of, you know, protecting yourself? I think that would probably be my number one concern. I think a lot of companies kind of ride the coattails of a major customer and before you know what those folks represent, it's 70% of your business. And, you know, that's a, that's a very, I mean, I don't, I don't have a feel in terms of like anything, anything impending that would kind of disrupt the manufacturing economy in the US, but you never know, you know, the pandemic, you know, people, you know, the US has gone through it before the world has with the Spanish flu, but no one really saw that coming, even though some people might have prepared for it. So I think that's probably the number one thing, you know, work at diversification more than anything. And, you know, what can you do to engage your workers, you know, are you giving them the opportunity to be a part of, are they being heard? You know, do they have opportunities to do different things? To me that, you know, the power comes when the entire organization has ability to contribute. And, you know, that helps you in terms of letting leaders not feel like they have to do everything. You can delegate. It helps in terms of winning over customers. If a customer knows, you know, particularly, if you have a shop where they can come and visit, and they actually engage with people there, and, you know, maybe they're impressed with people able to, like, make eye contact and engage a stranger that they've never met before, because they have a confidence in what they do and a pride with their company. That says a lot. It's small, you know, making decisions that put your company in a better position. I don't know for your customers, but for your employees. If you do right by those two audiences, I think the success will come. You know, focus, focus on what you know, and don't be afraid to learn. But I think you can only learn by giving yourself time to. Yep. And I think smaller company owners, kind of, you know, they're successful. Often, I think cultures, particularly in smaller organizations, take on the attributes of their leaders. Yep. But that's hard to scale. That's hard to scale. And, and I'm not so sure you want duplicates of the same person. A little bit diversity and thought, attitudes and actions kind of go a long way. Having multiples of the same type of character kind of comes right out of a sapphire, like, or no. I think that, you know, that, to me, that's, that's, that's what I see. People, people that kind of chart out a path and then focus, you know, on, on the, on the business and then the customers and employees, that'll get them to where they need to go.
Bryan Powrozek 32:22
No, that's fantastic. Yeah, no. And I, and I, I think you're right. I mean, don't be afraid to ask questions, ask your peers, read publications like The Fabricator and see what, what other folks are doing to learn what questions you should be asking, right? It's, it's a, it's a lot for a business owner to learn and they don't have to do it all themselves.
Dan Davis 32:41
Yeah, that's exactly what I've heard. That's our main challenge really with, you know, with like our readership being comprised mostly of smaller shops, you know, trying to convince those people to like go to the FMA annual meeting where they can network with other folks and we have user groups where four or five shops will get together on maybe a quarterly basis just to, you know, exchange notes and visit each other's shops. You know, stuff like that gives you not only a real vision of what others may be going through, but also just a sounding board because, you know, I can tell you the one story I remember, a young fabricator in Arizona starting out and he had a banker as like his business advisor, family friend, and he came in right when the business was first starting and that banker was kind of listening and learning more about the fabricating business. And he goes, man, this is really complex. And I think from the standpoint, sometimes the only people that can offer you good insight into fabricating or other fabricators, because I, you know, I think bankers deal with manufacturers and they understand it, but this is not a, you know, it's not a target audience. It's not one target audience, it's not one type of product or a couple of variations of a single product line. This is, you know, you can be serving everybody from the Department of Defense to a hot dog cart manufacturer. It's, when that comes different requirements, different expectations, but it's just the nature of the beast and frankly, what makes it exciting? Cause really you're dealing with defense all day. I mean, you're probably looking forward to like a hot dog cart project. You know, just to, you know, shake the day up.
Bryan Powrozek 34:25
Yep. Oh, definitely. Well, Dan, this is, Hey, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciated you coming on. I, uh, thanks again for your time.
Intro/Outro Narrator 34:33
Thank you for tuning in. Don't forget to like us, subscribe, and share on social. To learn more about Wipfli, visit us at Wipfli.com. That's W -I -P -F -L -I dot com. Perspective changes everything.
